That's a good start, but it's not the whole story. There will be a lot of talent returning to China, India, and South Korea, etc., for lack of options. Recent graduates that is. Will be difficult for those countries to take full advantage of these talents, but they might pull it off.
Yes. Immigration is hard. You need to learn a new language, adapt to the local culture and city design, navigate the increasingly hostile immigration system, and distance yourself from your family.
In the past, dreams of American opportunity made the tradeoff worth it. But now we're Magaland when the president sometimes crashes the economy on purpose and immigration officials randomly detain scientists at the airport. It's hard to believe that top engineers and aspiring scientists will continue to give it all up for a shot at life here
Article is built on false premises. Notably citing: "in 2022-24, by our calculations, 20m well-educated people wanted to move there, compared with 14m who preferred Canada (which has a much smaller population). "
Two things: "wanted" and "actively doing so" are worlds apart.
Additionally, other countries have about the same or even more complicated immigration rules.
The USA are safe from brain drain. And I'm saying that as a one living in Canada with close friends at McGill University - students still see the USA a primary destination of their interest.
I'm paraphrasing my experience in using the Canadian government's own points calculator for residency.
That doesn't meant that there aren't special programs apart from that. Because I'm not of the demographic, I didn't dig into how a Chinese, Indian, or African student or family, for example, might qualify for residency under whatever qualifications. Last, I assume that there's been a significant amount of refugee resettlement.
But if you are an average person from the US, you may be boxed into the standard calculations.
> Well, there you have to look at the history: you have to ask, how has the history of Canada been different from the history of the United States? And there have been a lot of differences. For instance, one difference had to do with the American Revolution—in the American Revolution, a large number of people fled to Canada, lots in fact. And a lot of them fled because they didn’t like the doctrinaire, kind of fanatic environment that took hold in the colonies. The percentage of colonists who fled in the American Revolution was actually about 4 percent, it was probably higher than the percentage of Vietnamese who fled Vietnam after the Vietnam War. And remember, they were fleeing from one of the richest places in the world—these were boat-people who fled in terror from Boston Harbor in the middle of winter to Nova Scotia, where they died in the snow trying to get away from all of these crazies here. The numbers are supposed to have been in the neighborhood of maybe a hundred thousand out of a total population of about two and a half million—so it was a substantial part of the population. And among them were people from groups who knew they were going to get it in the neck if the colonists won—blacks and Native Americans, for example.[70] And they were right: in the case of the Native Americans, it was genocide; in the case of blacks, it was slavery.
> [70]: On the number of colonists who fled the American Revolution, see for example, Carl Van Doren, Secret History of the American Revolution, New York: Viking, 1941. [... ...]
> The USA are safe from brain drain. And I'm saying that as a one living in Canada ...
I am saying as one living in US that it is not. I personally know some brilliant engineers who are in a dilemma because of the uncertainities that lies ahead.
The US is still the runaway leader for funding in research. American expenditure for R&D was 940 billion dollars while the EU’s was 411 billion [1]. I doubt Canada, Switzerland, the Uk, and AusNZ combined come close to matching that gap. If we get the proposed defense budget, that R&D spending will actually go up, just not in matters many people care about immediately.
With the zeitgeist shifting, I wouldn’t be surprised if we see an exodus of people in the soft sciences and liberal arts though. It’s not like they’re leaving a lot on the table if they leave America.
A close relative is in fairly rigorous data science in climate based littoral oceanographic research (maintains a couple R packages) doing PhD, funding cut as part of reprisals against a certain governor
exploring offers at 3 Canadian universities
so, only a couple hours drive further north to continue fairly rigorous data science research
yeah, we don't need that "soft science" nonsense here
As long as funding/economic benefits US offers remain, companies will be attracted to US and no brain drain will take place. EU just cannot offer anything comparable at this moment of time. Higher salaries, more opportunities and seeming less risk aversion of the investors.
I'm surprised Australia placed relatively low compared to the others. But yeah, that answers the question of which single countries are the most attractive. But none are overwhelmingly importing expats.
Cracking down on legal immigrants, skilled immigrants makes no sense. That’s what built America. Cracking down on illegal immigration makes plenty of sense. I hope the administration can see the difference.
Rights afforded by the US Constitution such as free speech, assembly, and due process extend to everyone in the country, not just citizens. But apparently, there is no right to be in the US. The state department (Marco Rubio) has the power to revoke any non-citizen’s permission. And that is exactly what they are doing right now to non-citizens who are legally in the US on visas for work, school, vacation, etc., if these people do or say something the Trump administration finds objectionable like attending a pro-Palestinian protest. They’ve revoked 500 student visas so far at dozens of universities. Google “revoke student visa”. And since there is no illegality needed, there is no due process necessary. These people are just sent home with no explanation given. In some cases they have no idea what they even did wrong. They can even be kicked out on mistaken identity because there is no due process. This has nothing to do with illegal immigration. These people are in the US legally, and have done nothing illegal. This policy is apparently designed to intimidate anyone who dissents, including citizens. If the Trump administration can find a legal loophole that allows them to harm their enemies they are using it. And if no loophole exists, they are trying it anyway (since Trump’s Supreme Court has already ruled that nothing he does can be a crime). See their actions against law firms and investigations into Miles Taylor (called Trump “unfit”) and Chris Krebs (called the 2020 election “secure”). All this is happening under your nose and you see it as purely focused on illegal immigration.
>Cracking down on legal immigrants, skilled immigrants makes no sense
It makes sense when thy engage in political activism or become dissidents. Just because they're skilled doesn't mean they can't be legally causing troubles at the same time.
No country tolerates foreigners moving in and acting against the country that took them in. Well, maybe Germany does.
When you emigrate somewhere on a visa, you're a guest in the country who's tolerated as long as you follow the rules and contribute to society, the moment you start causing trouble with protests or become a nuisance, you're out. Simple.
The government gave them the visa. When you apply for the visa you interact with the government and they give you the visa. If you check the terms and conditions of your visa, they're tied to you following the laws and not causing any issues otherwise it gets revoked.
The moment you try to swing a punch against the government that gave you that visa, then that contract is void, and you're out.
I don't see how this is an issue. Are you OK with foreigners coming into your country and starting to go against your democratically elected government(in principle, not just the orange man specifically)? I don't know anyone who wants that. Let citizens deal with their elected government, you can too once you become a citizen, if you want.
The first amendment of the Constitution guarantees free speech for everybody in the US, not just citizens. This is well established, and is only now being questioned because the current administration is trying to silence viewpoints they don't like.
You can express disagreement loudly with the power in place while still following the laws and not causing "issues" in the way most people think about issues.
Whether visa holders have such right depends on the countries however; I don't believe France has such restrictions (https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2190 does not mention "political activities" as a valid motive for refusing entry). I think some other countries do restrict political activities for non-citizens.
The protestors and editorial writers were typically not arrested for breaking laws. Typically there are some rules on protests, and when they are not followed then police are free to arrest people.
These people are part of the fabric of free speech that adds value to America. It's messier to live in a country like that, but it stops crazy authoritarian bubbles. I think it's slower at times, but leads to a better outcome.
Many American friends I know don't have the same family history surrounding governments like the Nazis, ussr and CCP. These things are worth protecting, and by the time you realize it -- you're too late.
Firstly, the First Amendment legally speaking, applies to American citizens, not visitors on a visa.
Secondly, there's big difference between free speech (as in saying what you want openly), and congregating to occupying public or private spaces to generate protests, be loud, obnoxious, block foot traffic, cause litter, incite to violence etc.
Your speech is free as long as it doesn't inconvenience others. Can I come outside your house, occupy the sidewalk and shout in a bullhorn my political opinions at your window 24/7? No? Why is that? It's just my free speech bro. You see how free speech works?
Why are you so gung-ho about such a pathetic standard? The US shouldn't be terrified of students expressing contrary ideas, it should show them that we mean it when we say that freedom of speech is an important value.
It can well be the case that the visa has provisions that allow rescinding it for the things that you are talking about, but I'm pretty sure that they are discretionary, not mandatory, so no need to cower at the words of these students.
Why would you move to a country that does terrorism?
And I'll let you in a secret: the legal definition of what is terrorism and what is not, is the one the government and courts decide, not you as a non-citizen. To me what Busch did equates to terrorism, but that's not what the courts decided, so there we are.
That's not your government to protest against because you can't vote as your not a citizen of that country, so that country's leadership is not accountable to you, it's accountable only to its citizens.
Leave that protesting to the citizens, or move to your country and protest in front of the US/Israel embassy from your own country's soil, that's the legal way to do it.
They were protesting in front of an embassy that you felt supported terrorism.
I doubt you would be ok with hardworking moral cowards becoming the teachers, CEOs and experts for america.
It’s a bit sad, because some of the strongest moral leaders in america, have also been the ones who stood up for rights and freedoms. It’s… I mean what would be more American?
>I doubt you would be ok with hardworking moral cowards becoming the teachers, CEOs and experts for america.
Most people today are driven by self interest and self preservation, not morality. Anything you see publicly resembling morality is virtue signaling for the sake of optics. Everyone quickly stops wanting to be a martyr when their livelihood is on the line. It's easy to be generous with other people's lives/money.
>Capitulation? Would you respect that?
Capitulation against who? What results did their so called fight give? Other than causing public nuisance. Why don't they go to Gaza and pick up arms if they want to fight? Putting tents in university campuses and shouting from the safety of US public spaces is not fighting, it's virtue signaling.
Do you respect foreigners to treat your country as a battle ground for their ideologies? I assume yes only when their ideologies match yours, but what about when they don't?
I’m gonna assume that Brain Drain means that people who you spent resources as a country to train leave to spend their productive years elsewhere.
> Our proxy for talent is respondents who said they had completed an undergraduate degree.
Higher education in the US is mostly privatized. Society hasn’t born the cost of those undergraduate degrees. What does the US lose if they leave?
There’s also the question of whether other countries need people with undergraduate degrees. Do they need to save money on training their own citizens in liberal arts, nursing, engineering? That’s a bit unclear.
India possibly. It's not much in the geopolitical discussion, but in 50 years time, may be earlier, India will have a larger economy than the US. That will truly be then end of the "American Age". Whole playbook which has been applied to USSR, China won't apply either.
Even as on today, moving to India and Indonesia and similar countries will bring similar quality of life that people get in the US at a lower cost. Rents, Healthcare, labour all are much cheaper. Interest rates are much higher.
You'll even get things like quick-commerce, which isn't really taking-off in the US.
Oppenheimer was considered to be a left wing agitator, there are tons of very smart people who are pro labour organization which the US has historically seen as left wing agitation.
My grandfather was a (non-professional) left wing agitator who was brought in front of HUAC when he joined the NIH, and also won the Lasker-Debakey award for his contributions to the development of combination chemotherapy.
Honest question, what would be gained by moving from America to China? Their government is by nearly all measures less tolerant, less free, less friendly to foreigners, more racist, and at least as morally evil, but probably more so considering their treatment of the Uyghurs and other minority populations.
At least in America if you’re not a fan of the Trump administration we’ll have another leader in a couple years. You can’t say the same for China.
I agree with every point here but I think we’re talking about different things.
Brain drain from the US will be a dispersion that will hurt America but not meaningfully help any single country directly. At least in the short term.
But China has a lot to gain from a weakened America simply by being the best positioned, most aggressive secondary power.
Of course you’re right that an individual emigrating from the US to China is economically net-negative for that individual except for in very unusual circumstances.
The calculus is still in America's favor, but the assumption it will always be is incredibly arrogant. Especially because at the end of the day, a lot of people can be simply bought.
I'm obviously not a fan of dictatorships, I'm just trying to rationalize why someone might prefer China to the US.
I think the problem is that the US presidency is too powerful, it might be better to turn the presidency into a ceremonial position. It shouldn't be possible for the president to do all this damage.
It’s pretty much going in the US exactly how George Washington predicted.
“[Political factions] are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government and destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.”
Relatively speaking, that is also how much of the rest of the free world feels about the USA (even before Trump). But people are willing to move there anyway because: $$$.
Most of our “brains” are mercenaries, who are actually a net loss to the country if you judge by anything other than the stock market. Look at what happened to SoCal! You are all welcome to our fintech/biotech/adtech/surveillance “geniuses”.
Since you don’t appreciate any of the comforts of modernity, I’ll put this is framing you will understand: The killbot drone race is inevitable and not one you want America to lose.
present tense, mercenary. present tense. contrary to what your ego says, you are not isaac newton. make your drones. kill us all with them. as you gloat, your masters point them at you.
They mythos of the genius is riding on the long coat tails of the post-worldwar research/coldwar researchers, where there were hard, cold result deadlines.
Todays genius produces "papers" about how "all the low hanging fruits are gone" - as if what was archieved back then was easy because its today served in easy to diggest pedagogic pieces. Then the whole research caste is now in "optimizing tasks" that basically rearrange the economy in a ever belt tightening to exclude the average joe, instead of driving developments, that increase the overall cake for society. How to say it without hurting feelings, but nothing of value was lost...
In those WWII days, you could make an acceptable living doing good research. You wouldn't become a billionaire, but you'd definitely make enough to support a family. Somewhere along the line, it became a winner-take-all gold-rush. That attracts the wrong sort of person: a bunch of miner 49ers who think they're Einstein because the system jammed a little bit of calculus into their heads before they grabbed their picks and shovels and headed west.
Here's an old, sad, joke:
What's the difference between a physicist and a large pizza? The pizza can feed a family of four.
I'd love for everything described in this article to be true. If the U.S. really were pushing talent away en masse, maybe my odds of getting in would go up. But I have serious doubts.
Very few folks are rushing to pay half their salary in taxes, wrestle with EU bureaucracy, and earn 2-3x less pre-tax just to move to Europe. And don’t get me started on bottle caps screwed on so tight you can't drink from them.
I could go on about memeI'd love for everything described in this article to be true. If the U.S. really were pushing talent away en masse, maybe my odds of getting in would go up. But I have serious doubts.
Very few folks are rushing to pay half their salary in taxes, wrestle with EU bureaucracy, and earn 2–3x less pre-tax just to move to Europe. And don’t get me started on bottle caps screwed on so tight you can't drink from them.
I could go on about meme-tier Canada or even more meme-tier Australia. As for India or China - most people didn’t leave just to go back.
Sure, Trump is scaring off a few people, but most of those at risk - without roots, degrees, or real work experience - will fight tooth and nail to stay. Deporting one unlucky grad student probably won’t shift the odds in my favor. Pity.
Disclaimer: I’m IT-focused. No clue what’s going on with nuclear engineers or scientists. Maybe they live in a parallel universe.tier Canada or even more meme-tier Australia. As for India or China - most people didn’t leave just to go back.
Sure, Trump is scaring off a few people, but most of those at risk - without roots, degrees, or real work experience - will fight tooth and nail to stay. Deporting one unlucky grad student probably won’t shift the odds in my favor. Pity.
Disclaimer: I’m IT-focused. No clue what’s going on with nuclear engineers or scientists. Maybe they live in a parallel universe.
> There is no American brain drain, unlike claimed in leftist media.
There is vanishingly little US "leftist media", and none of it is concerned with a brain drain from the USA. It's mostly outlets in the historically center-right media, including some of those who went out of their way to kowtow to Trump immediately before and/or shortly after the election, that have done so. Unsurprisingly, because "brain drain" is a concern of their corporate capitalist constituency, and not so much of the anticapitalist left.
(That said, it is a real and measurable thing, irrespective of what political faction finds it most concerning.)
https://archive.is/myWkF
That's a good start, but it's not the whole story. There will be a lot of talent returning to China, India, and South Korea, etc., for lack of options. Recent graduates that is. Will be difficult for those countries to take full advantage of these talents, but they might pull it off.
Yes. Immigration is hard. You need to learn a new language, adapt to the local culture and city design, navigate the increasingly hostile immigration system, and distance yourself from your family.
In the past, dreams of American opportunity made the tradeoff worth it. But now we're Magaland when the president sometimes crashes the economy on purpose and immigration officials randomly detain scientists at the airport. It's hard to believe that top engineers and aspiring scientists will continue to give it all up for a shot at life here
Article is built on false premises. Notably citing: "in 2022-24, by our calculations, 20m well-educated people wanted to move there, compared with 14m who preferred Canada (which has a much smaller population). "
Two things: "wanted" and "actively doing so" are worlds apart. Additionally, other countries have about the same or even more complicated immigration rules.
The USA are safe from brain drain. And I'm saying that as a one living in Canada with close friends at McGill University - students still see the USA a primary destination of their interest.
There's a lot of people who threaten they will move to Canada. Far fewer actually follow through
It's almost impossible to get residency in Canada, short of marriage and for most US citizens.
If you are a French speaking PhD in a preferred industry who is under 29 years old, you may be gtg.
>It's almost impossible to get residency in Canada
How does that square with the fact that 1/5 of the Canadian population were born abroad? Seems plenty are able to move there.
I'm paraphrasing my experience in using the Canadian government's own points calculator for residency.
That doesn't meant that there aren't special programs apart from that. Because I'm not of the demographic, I didn't dig into how a Chinese, Indian, or African student or family, for example, might qualify for residency under whatever qualifications. Last, I assume that there's been a significant amount of refugee resettlement.
But if you are an average person from the US, you may be boxed into the standard calculations.
Diploma mils in particular:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/provinces-cracking-down-on-pr...
> Well, there you have to look at the history: you have to ask, how has the history of Canada been different from the history of the United States? And there have been a lot of differences. For instance, one difference had to do with the American Revolution—in the American Revolution, a large number of people fled to Canada, lots in fact. And a lot of them fled because they didn’t like the doctrinaire, kind of fanatic environment that took hold in the colonies. The percentage of colonists who fled in the American Revolution was actually about 4 percent, it was probably higher than the percentage of Vietnamese who fled Vietnam after the Vietnam War. And remember, they were fleeing from one of the richest places in the world—these were boat-people who fled in terror from Boston Harbor in the middle of winter to Nova Scotia, where they died in the snow trying to get away from all of these crazies here. The numbers are supposed to have been in the neighborhood of maybe a hundred thousand out of a total population of about two and a half million—so it was a substantial part of the population. And among them were people from groups who knew they were going to get it in the neck if the colonists won—blacks and Native Americans, for example.[70] And they were right: in the case of the Native Americans, it was genocide; in the case of blacks, it was slavery.
> [70]: On the number of colonists who fled the American Revolution, see for example, Carl Van Doren, Secret History of the American Revolution, New York: Viking, 1941. [... ...]
A.N. Chomsky, Understanding Power
> The USA are safe from brain drain. And I'm saying that as a one living in Canada ... I am saying as one living in US that it is not. I personally know some brilliant engineers who are in a dilemma because of the uncertainities that lies ahead.
Five frogs are sitting on a log. Four decide to jump off. How many frogs are left on the log?
> The USA are safe from brain drain.
We’re three months into this administration. I wouldn’t make any pronouncements yet.
The US is still the runaway leader for funding in research. American expenditure for R&D was 940 billion dollars while the EU’s was 411 billion [1]. I doubt Canada, Switzerland, the Uk, and AusNZ combined come close to matching that gap. If we get the proposed defense budget, that R&D spending will actually go up, just not in matters many people care about immediately.
With the zeitgeist shifting, I wouldn’t be surprised if we see an exodus of people in the soft sciences and liberal arts though. It’s not like they’re leaving a lot on the table if they leave America.
1. https://www.reuters.com/world/scientists-us-harried-by-trump...
A close relative is in fairly rigorous data science in climate based littoral oceanographic research (maintains a couple R packages) doing PhD, funding cut as part of reprisals against a certain governor
exploring offers at 3 Canadian universities
so, only a couple hours drive further north to continue fairly rigorous data science research
yeah, we don't need that "soft science" nonsense here
As long as funding/economic benefits US offers remain, companies will be attracted to US and no brain drain will take place. EU just cannot offer anything comparable at this moment of time. Higher salaries, more opportunities and seeming less risk aversion of the investors.
Switzerland.
"All other countries"
Britain
Canada
Germany
New Zealand
Italy
Australia
France
Spain
Switzerland
Norway
Portugal
---
I'm surprised Australia placed relatively low compared to the others. But yeah, that answers the question of which single countries are the most attractive. But none are overwhelmingly importing expats.
Along with NZ it's further away from where conferences will be help most likely.
That, and the threat of drop bears.
Don't think we'll see one.
The more likely outcome is US quality of life & prosperity drops sharply.
Most people don't have the ability to move easily given that most countries require work visas for US citizens.
Cracking down on legal immigrants, skilled immigrants makes no sense. That’s what built America. Cracking down on illegal immigration makes plenty of sense. I hope the administration can see the difference.
They're not really cracking down on one over the other. They're cracking down on what they view as undesirable viewpoints.
How so? Everything I've seen from them indicates they are purely focused on illegal immigration.
- https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/migrants-in-u-s-legally-an...
- https://www.newsweek.com/immigration-legal-migrant-detained-...
- https://www.npr.org/2025/02/04/nx-s1-5282379/trumps-mass-dep...
- https://truthout.org/articles/trump-administration-has-detai...
Rights afforded by the US Constitution such as free speech, assembly, and due process extend to everyone in the country, not just citizens. But apparently, there is no right to be in the US. The state department (Marco Rubio) has the power to revoke any non-citizen’s permission. And that is exactly what they are doing right now to non-citizens who are legally in the US on visas for work, school, vacation, etc., if these people do or say something the Trump administration finds objectionable like attending a pro-Palestinian protest. They’ve revoked 500 student visas so far at dozens of universities. Google “revoke student visa”. And since there is no illegality needed, there is no due process necessary. These people are just sent home with no explanation given. In some cases they have no idea what they even did wrong. They can even be kicked out on mistaken identity because there is no due process. This has nothing to do with illegal immigration. These people are in the US legally, and have done nothing illegal. This policy is apparently designed to intimidate anyone who dissents, including citizens. If the Trump administration can find a legal loophole that allows them to harm their enemies they are using it. And if no loophole exists, they are trying it anyway (since Trump’s Supreme Court has already ruled that nothing he does can be a crime). See their actions against law firms and investigations into Miles Taylor (called Trump “unfit”) and Chris Krebs (called the 2020 election “secure”). All this is happening under your nose and you see it as purely focused on illegal immigration.
Two things can be true at the same time
Yes, but more so on undesirable people.
There are people that at best they don't want to "see", at worst to exist.
It's what built every single country on Earth except theoretically Egypt?
Your point is just makes no sense to me.
>Cracking down on legal immigrants, skilled immigrants makes no sense
It makes sense when thy engage in political activism or become dissidents. Just because they're skilled doesn't mean they can't be legally causing troubles at the same time.
No country tolerates foreigners moving in and acting against the country that took them in. Well, maybe Germany does.
When you emigrate somewhere on a visa, you're a guest in the country who's tolerated as long as you follow the rules and contribute to society, the moment you start causing trouble with protests or become a nuisance, you're out. Simple.
They're not acting against the country but against the government. The country may very well benefit largely from the government being impeded.
The government gave them the visa. When you apply for the visa you interact with the government and they give you the visa. If you check the terms and conditions of your visa, they're tied to you following the laws and not causing any issues otherwise it gets revoked.
The moment you try to swing a punch against the government that gave you that visa, then that contract is void, and you're out.
I don't see how this is an issue. Are you OK with foreigners coming into your country and starting to go against your democratically elected government(in principle, not just the orange man specifically)? I don't know anyone who wants that. Let citizens deal with their elected government, you can too once you become a citizen, if you want.
The first amendment of the Constitution guarantees free speech for everybody in the US, not just citizens. This is well established, and is only now being questioned because the current administration is trying to silence viewpoints they don't like.
You can express disagreement loudly with the power in place while still following the laws and not causing "issues" in the way most people think about issues.
Whether visa holders have such right depends on the countries however; I don't believe France has such restrictions (https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2190 does not mention "political activities" as a valid motive for refusing entry). I think some other countries do restrict political activities for non-citizens.
Why do we have freedom of speech for Americans?
One reason is that it is a check on power.
The protestors and editorial writers were typically not arrested for breaking laws. Typically there are some rules on protests, and when they are not followed then police are free to arrest people.
These people are part of the fabric of free speech that adds value to America. It's messier to live in a country like that, but it stops crazy authoritarian bubbles. I think it's slower at times, but leads to a better outcome.
Many American friends I know don't have the same family history surrounding governments like the Nazis, ussr and CCP. These things are worth protecting, and by the time you realize it -- you're too late.
This is my response you asked for. Does it help ?
Firstly, the First Amendment legally speaking, applies to American citizens, not visitors on a visa.
Secondly, there's big difference between free speech (as in saying what you want openly), and congregating to occupying public or private spaces to generate protests, be loud, obnoxious, block foot traffic, cause litter, incite to violence etc.
Your speech is free as long as it doesn't inconvenience others. Can I come outside your house, occupy the sidewalk and shout in a bullhorn my political opinions at your window 24/7? No? Why is that? It's just my free speech bro. You see how free speech works?
Why are you so gung-ho about such a pathetic standard? The US shouldn't be terrified of students expressing contrary ideas, it should show them that we mean it when we say that freedom of speech is an important value.
It can well be the case that the visa has provisions that allow rescinding it for the things that you are talking about, but I'm pretty sure that they are discretionary, not mandatory, so no need to cower at the words of these students.
Hmm. what If they were protesting terrorism?
Why would you move to a country that does terrorism?
And I'll let you in a secret: the legal definition of what is terrorism and what is not, is the one the government and courts decide, not you as a non-citizen. To me what Busch did equates to terrorism, but that's not what the courts decided, so there we are.
That's not your government to protest against because you can't vote as your not a citizen of that country, so that country's leadership is not accountable to you, it's accountable only to its citizens.
Leave that protesting to the citizens, or move to your country and protest in front of the US/Israel embassy from your own country's soil, that's the legal way to do it.
They were protesting in front of an embassy that you felt supported terrorism.
I doubt you would be ok with hardworking moral cowards becoming the teachers, CEOs and experts for america.
It’s a bit sad, because some of the strongest moral leaders in america, have also been the ones who stood up for rights and freedoms. It’s… I mean what would be more American?
Capitulation? Would you respect that?
>I doubt you would be ok with hardworking moral cowards becoming the teachers, CEOs and experts for america.
Most people today are driven by self interest and self preservation, not morality. Anything you see publicly resembling morality is virtue signaling for the sake of optics. Everyone quickly stops wanting to be a martyr when their livelihood is on the line. It's easy to be generous with other people's lives/money.
>Capitulation? Would you respect that?
Capitulation against who? What results did their so called fight give? Other than causing public nuisance. Why don't they go to Gaza and pick up arms if they want to fight? Putting tents in university campuses and shouting from the safety of US public spaces is not fighting, it's virtue signaling.
Do you respect foreigners to treat your country as a battle ground for their ideologies? I assume yes only when their ideologies match yours, but what about when they don't?
[dead]
> America’s reputation as a land of opportunity for talented immigrants
Does America have this reputation? H1B is around 20% success rate, all the jobs are in places with COL so high you’ll never afford a home.
I’m gonna assume that Brain Drain means that people who you spent resources as a country to train leave to spend their productive years elsewhere.
> Our proxy for talent is respondents who said they had completed an undergraduate degree.
Higher education in the US is mostly privatized. Society hasn’t born the cost of those undergraduate degrees. What does the US lose if they leave?
There’s also the question of whether other countries need people with undergraduate degrees. Do they need to save money on training their own citizens in liberal arts, nursing, engineering? That’s a bit unclear.
India possibly. It's not much in the geopolitical discussion, but in 50 years time, may be earlier, India will have a larger economy than the US. That will truly be then end of the "American Age". Whole playbook which has been applied to USSR, China won't apply either.
Even as on today, moving to India and Indonesia and similar countries will bring similar quality of life that people get in the US at a lower cost. Rents, Healthcare, labour all are much cheaper. Interest rates are much higher.
You'll even get things like quick-commerce, which isn't really taking-off in the US.
That's not super relevant now. The university graduates of today will be 70+ by then.
A larger economy but drastically more inequality and a despicable caste system.
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"Former professional left wing agitator curses cancer" is I think a very unlikely headline.
Oppenheimer was considered to be a left wing agitator, there are tons of very smart people who are pro labour organization which the US has historically seen as left wing agitation.
We have now been given permission to agitate and keep our IQ identity.
My grandfather was a (non-professional) left wing agitator who was brought in front of HUAC when he joined the NIH, and also won the Lasker-Debakey award for his contributions to the development of combination chemotherapy.
China. China. China. The answer is China.
I don’t think many people that are not from there originally would consider moving to China because they can’t or won’t stay in the US
The question is “which countries benefit most from brain drain”, not “which countries will get the most immigrants from the US.”
People don’t have to move to China for them to benefit.
Honest question, what would be gained by moving from America to China? Their government is by nearly all measures less tolerant, less free, less friendly to foreigners, more racist, and at least as morally evil, but probably more so considering their treatment of the Uyghurs and other minority populations.
At least in America if you’re not a fan of the Trump administration we’ll have another leader in a couple years. You can’t say the same for China.
I agree with every point here but I think we’re talking about different things.
Brain drain from the US will be a dispersion that will hurt America but not meaningfully help any single country directly. At least in the short term.
But China has a lot to gain from a weakened America simply by being the best positioned, most aggressive secondary power.
Of course you’re right that an individual emigrating from the US to China is economically net-negative for that individual except for in very unusual circumstances.
The calculus is still in America's favor, but the assumption it will always be is incredibly arrogant. Especially because at the end of the day, a lot of people can be simply bought.
Stability. You said it yourself:
> we’ll have another leader in a couple years
Depending on how you look at it, it could be seen as a disadvantage. China's policies are generally long-term and stable.
One day, the CCP will be eithe corrupt or bad (perhaps not under Xi) and will instead ruthlessly cling to power.
“I have this terrible illness, but at least it’s chronic.”
I'm obviously not a fan of dictatorships, I'm just trying to rationalize why someone might prefer China to the US.
I think the problem is that the US presidency is too powerful, it might be better to turn the presidency into a ceremonial position. It shouldn't be possible for the president to do all this damage.
It’s pretty much going in the US exactly how George Washington predicted.
“[Political factions] are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government and destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.”
Blame Congress. Over time they have consistently ceded power to the executive branch, either directly to the president or to federal agencies.
Relatively speaking, that is also how much of the rest of the free world feels about the USA (even before Trump). But people are willing to move there anyway because: $$$.
Most of our “brains” are mercenaries, who are actually a net loss to the country if you judge by anything other than the stock market. Look at what happened to SoCal! You are all welcome to our fintech/biotech/adtech/surveillance “geniuses”.
Since you don’t appreciate any of the comforts of modernity, I’ll put this is framing you will understand: The killbot drone race is inevitable and not one you want America to lose.
present tense, mercenary. present tense. contrary to what your ego says, you are not isaac newton. make your drones. kill us all with them. as you gloat, your masters point them at you.
They mythos of the genius is riding on the long coat tails of the post-worldwar research/coldwar researchers, where there were hard, cold result deadlines. Todays genius produces "papers" about how "all the low hanging fruits are gone" - as if what was archieved back then was easy because its today served in easy to diggest pedagogic pieces. Then the whole research caste is now in "optimizing tasks" that basically rearrange the economy in a ever belt tightening to exclude the average joe, instead of driving developments, that increase the overall cake for society. How to say it without hurting feelings, but nothing of value was lost...
In those WWII days, you could make an acceptable living doing good research. You wouldn't become a billionaire, but you'd definitely make enough to support a family. Somewhere along the line, it became a winner-take-all gold-rush. That attracts the wrong sort of person: a bunch of miner 49ers who think they're Einstein because the system jammed a little bit of calculus into their heads before they grabbed their picks and shovels and headed west.
Here's an old, sad, joke:
What's the difference between a physicist and a large pizza? The pizza can feed a family of four.
This is a sad take.
Separate these two things out perhaps ?
The stuff that’s happening now with enshittified tech and resources being poured into that.
Everything that happened before that, which set up the infrastructure.
"are" not "were"
Oh Hey, missed that. Yay synchronicity!
Sure. Just look at medicine, quality of life, etc. /s
raiding old ladies' pensions and listening in on everybody's conversations does not put you in the same game as the guy who discovered penicillin.
I'd love for everything described in this article to be true. If the U.S. really were pushing talent away en masse, maybe my odds of getting in would go up. But I have serious doubts.
Very few folks are rushing to pay half their salary in taxes, wrestle with EU bureaucracy, and earn 2-3x less pre-tax just to move to Europe. And don’t get me started on bottle caps screwed on so tight you can't drink from them.
I could go on about memeI'd love for everything described in this article to be true. If the U.S. really were pushing talent away en masse, maybe my odds of getting in would go up. But I have serious doubts.
Very few folks are rushing to pay half their salary in taxes, wrestle with EU bureaucracy, and earn 2–3x less pre-tax just to move to Europe. And don’t get me started on bottle caps screwed on so tight you can't drink from them.
I could go on about meme-tier Canada or even more meme-tier Australia. As for India or China - most people didn’t leave just to go back.
Sure, Trump is scaring off a few people, but most of those at risk - without roots, degrees, or real work experience - will fight tooth and nail to stay. Deporting one unlucky grad student probably won’t shift the odds in my favor. Pity.
Disclaimer: I’m IT-focused. No clue what’s going on with nuclear engineers or scientists. Maybe they live in a parallel universe.tier Canada or even more meme-tier Australia. As for India or China - most people didn’t leave just to go back.
Sure, Trump is scaring off a few people, but most of those at risk - without roots, degrees, or real work experience - will fight tooth and nail to stay. Deporting one unlucky grad student probably won’t shift the odds in my favor. Pity.
Disclaimer: I’m IT-focused. No clue what’s going on with nuclear engineers or scientists. Maybe they live in a parallel universe.
There is no American brain drain, unlike claimed in leftist media. It’s the opposite.
Source it came to me in a dream?
Tourism is rapidly down, which I feel like is not a bad proxy on how much people want to go to a place.
Add in that the US continues to state it wants to invade greenland and canada.
> There is no American brain drain, unlike claimed in leftist media.
There is vanishingly little US "leftist media", and none of it is concerned with a brain drain from the USA. It's mostly outlets in the historically center-right media, including some of those who went out of their way to kowtow to Trump immediately before and/or shortly after the election, that have done so. Unsurprisingly, because "brain drain" is a concern of their corporate capitalist constituency, and not so much of the anticapitalist left.
(That said, it is a real and measurable thing, irrespective of what political faction finds it most concerning.)